Opened 7 years ago

Closed 7 years ago

#6719 closed task (implemented)

Make 'tor-relays-universities' mailing list

Reported by: arma Owned by:
Priority: Medium Milestone:
Component: Internal Services/Tor Sysadmin Team Version:
Severity: Keywords:
Cc: cypherpunks@…, weasel, ln5 Actual Points:
Parent ID: Points:
Reviewer: Sponsor:

Description

We've got a pile of university research groups all looking into running fast exits at once. We should give them a community where they can compare notes.

This should be an open list; archived is fine.

Child Tickets

Change History (11)

comment:1 Changed 7 years ago by phobos

I disagree. What's wrong with using the existing tor-relays?

comment:2 Changed 7 years ago by arma

It's got too many people on it, so shy/busy/etc people won't use it.

The alternative is to manage a big pile of cc's and basically have me be the list.

comment:3 Changed 7 years ago by mikeperry

The downside of a separate list is that without some experienced exit relay operators on it, we'll just have the blind leading the blind. It will be easy for panic to take over and people to make irrational and otherwise myopic decisions out of fear without someone who has been through it before to explain the situation to them. It will be similarly easy for a group of researchers to decide a particular type of experimental traffic analysis is a totally good idea and all convince themselves of this without consulting the larger community...

Have people specifically requested a separate list?

The shy thing makes sense to me as a valid reason. Can we maybe get riseup account vouchers or something for people who don't want to use their real name + university email on tor-relays? Will that make those people happier, or is it just too much hassle?

comment:4 in reply to:  3 Changed 7 years ago by arma

Replying to mikeperry:

The downside of a separate list is that without some experienced exit relay operators on it, we'll just have the blind leading the blind. It will be easy for panic to take over and people to make irrational and otherwise myopic decisions out of fear without someone who has been through it before to explain the situation to them. It will be similarly easy for a group of researchers to decide a particular type of experimental traffic analysis is a totally good idea and all convince themselves of this without consulting the larger community...

That's why Moritz and I will be on the list.

If Tor doesn't make it I'll set it up on moria or something. Or encourage Ian to set one up at Waterloo.

Have people specifically requested a separate list?

No. But building a tight-knit community of university relay operators who can support each other is imo a critical step in keeping them up. If they each do it in isolation it'll be too easy to just shut it down (as we learned, since we used to have a bunch and now we have 2.)

The shy thing makes sense to me as a valid reason. Can we maybe get riseup account vouchers or something for people who don't want to use their real name + university email on tor-relays? Will that make those people happier, or is it just too much hassle?

No, this needs to be a community of actual humans. They're not trying to be pseudonymous. They're busy and don't have time for the whole of tor-relays.

comment:5 Changed 7 years ago by cypherpunks

Cc: cypherpunks@… added

The Roger has spoken.
The Roger is displeased with questions.
The Roger knows all.
Do as The Roger commands.

comment:6 Changed 7 years ago by mikeperry

I am not the above cypherpunk. However, I am curious why we expect the university relay crowd to only have university-specific issues, generally have nothing to contribute that the tor-relays crowd wouldn't also be interested in, and also have no questions that tor-relays might be able to answer?

Similarly, why wouldn't most members of tor-relays *also* subscribe themselves to tor-relays-universities immediately? I know I would. Would we discourage non-university relay operators from subscribing or posting?

I assume we'll announce the creation of tor-relays-universities on tor-relays? How do you suggest people manage cross posting?

I'm guessing there are good answers to the above questions. I can also see university-specific topics coming up from time to time. I just want to make sure we're not splitting the list too early.

comment:7 Changed 7 years ago by arma

Hm. The current situation is that I'm going to maintain a growing cc line that I paste into mails that I send on the topic. And anybody I send them to won't know whether the people on the cc line actually opted in to being on the thread, or what, which I fear will discourage people from taking advantage of them.

For background, I did a rump session talk at Usenix Security to several hundred professors and other academics, urging them to run exits, and got a dozen or two bites that I'm now trying to follow up on. The more we can make these people be their own self-supporting community, the less I'll have to be the center of it (because having me be the ongoing center of yet another thing is harmful to Tor).

Maybe the best answer actually is for me to encourage Ian to start and run the list -- that way it really is the community supporting itself.

(As for why the tor-relays list doesn't solve the problem here: how come you don't use tor-relays when discussing among the other amunet operators how to deal with that latest headache from your isp? How come torservers.net has its own list for its relays?)

comment:8 in reply to:  7 Changed 7 years ago by arma

Replying to arma:

For background,

For more background, I should clarify that the number one question I get from prospective US university exit relay operators is "can you give me a list of the other US university exit relays, and contacts for them? I need that to convince my people that we won't be the first."

comment:9 Changed 7 years ago by weasel

Cc: weasel added

comment:10 Changed 7 years ago by ln5

Cc: ln5 added

comment:11 Changed 7 years ago by phobos

Resolution: implemented
Status: newclosed

We clearly have solved all the anonymity problems in the world given how much time we have to argue about what color to paint the bikeshed. Roger is the moderator.

I created the list. use it, don't use it. whatever.

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